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1956 Hungarian Revolution, Roundtable Discussion at HRFA |
Participants included many 1956 Freedom Fighter such as Imre Toth, last surviving Secretary of the Revolutionary Committee for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the Imre Nagy government, and Per Bang Jensen, whose UN diplomat father died mysteriously after outspokenly supporting the Hungarian Freedom Fighters. AHF's Bryan Dawson-Szilagyi remarked that "unity" and "common purpose" was the lesson to learn from the heroic fight for freedom. Chartered by Congress in 1896, HRFA, a fraternal organization offering life insurance and financing, is one of the Hungarian-American community's most important and enduring organizations. TRANSCRIPT (Photos Bryan Dawson-Szilagyi, AHF News Service)
(Now we know.) FK: OK, now you know. It's a fraternal insurance company, over a hundred years old, chartered by Congress over a hundred years ago. I am the manager of the Washington area branch. The main reason we are here today is to make sure that everybody knows that this is the Hungarian Reformed Federation, the second is 1956. I would like this to be an open discussion and the process will be that I'd like to go around and those who wish introduce themselves and go down the list of agenda and cover some of it, as a guideline, just as a part of an introduction. So we know who came from what experiences and background. After we finish that, we go into the discussion. And I'd like to ask you to keep your speech for no more than 5 minutes. Obviously I'm not going to cut somebody off but let's make sure we give a chance to everybody. Another thing I ask you, once we get into the discussion, no yelling. One other thing, Toth Zsuzsa volunteered to record the proceedings, if anybody has an objection, tell me, we can shut it off. The reason is why we want to record it, maybe we'll hear some interesting experiences, memories worth writing down. In fact, Brian volunteered to make a web page of today's event. The reason we are speaking in English because there are some people who don't speak Hungarian, and I am easier in English. Of course, I can't speak either Hungarian and "dadogok" in English too. So I will read the second sentence to kind of focus on what we want to do: We want to know how after 50 years the revolution and its impact on the world is viewed, assessed and thought of by people who experienced the revolution, first, and the second part, people who were not there during the revolution, it's just as important, that they share with us their views and sentiments of the revolution. I will start my 5 minutes here and see if I can do within 5 minutes. In September of 1956 I just started Gymnasium on the Moricz Zsigmond Korter in Buda which is very close to the Technical University in Budapest. As it happened, I heard about the march to the Bem Statue and I left school and joined the march to the Bem Statue. By the way that was the last time I've seen that school, I never went back there. And after the march to the Bem Statue with the students from all over I ended up at the Radio, I was there when the shooting started and next morning I remember there were people, dead bodies were stocked up at the entrance of the Radio building, that's one of my impressions of the revolution. The remaining part of the revolution to me is almost like a fog, I was at lots of places but I don't remember when. For example I don't remember what I did when I was shooting, was it before or after the Russians came in. Anyway, one of my main experiences during the revolution was the infamous participation in the siege of the Party House on Koztarsasag Ter. Which some of you heard of, we'll discuss it later, it was a very bloody affair. And just to make sure that I remember it, here is a shell from the tank which was shooting at the party house. It's a shell I was helping to load the tanks when they ran out of ammunition and for some reason I saved this shell and my father actually buried it in our basement and a friend of my who was teaching at the FBI Academy in Budapest brought it out. I left Hungary December 1, 1956. My 15th birthday was December 3, 1956. I sent a message to my mother from the "Tizenot Eves Kapitany". This was one of my favorite books, Jules Verne's the Fifteen Year Old Captain. Another point just before I go further, the way I got out is my mother sent me out for some coffee and I sent her the coffee from Austria. So that's my story, this was about 4 minutes. Zoli, you want to start?
Frank Koszorus: Well, I was a young child living here, so, although I have a few things to share with you during the discussion period, I think I prefer to pass the baton over to those people who participated in or were there in Hungary.
FK: Well, that's OK, this is enough to say what you just did if you were not there.
But unfortunately it coincided with the war of the Suez Canal and that was a big blow to us. I remember it as a very optimistic and then a very negative thing.
My father's story at the United Nations is a long story. But, in 1991
I went back to Hungary as requested by the President, Gontz to receive
a post-humus award on behalf of my father. At the time I went to the Szechenyi
National Library to look at the books they had on the Hungarian revolution
and the books were marked on library cards with special code meaning that
prior to 1989 only members of the Communist Party could read in special
rooms those books. Even looking at all the books of the world, I realized
that at home I have more books in English and in Hungarian on the Hungarian
Revolution of 1956 than that library. And there's still a void at the
National Library in the books they have, there are books that are out
of print, so I kind of said, well, got a few books, made copies and sent
it to them. The National Archives here sent 13 thousand pages of microfilm
back to Budapest to the National Library, about 15 thousand photocopies,
and 7 thousand pages from the British Archives, some from the French Archives,
so this is a work process, filling many gaps that people here, Hungarians
in the United States have books, have memoirs, and some of them are going
to New Jersey in the Hungarian Library in Brunswick, others are wanted
different places, but I think at the end of the day, FK: It's great!
But, one thing you were not there, you left already when I graduated from high school, for some stupid reason I was not really the best student in the class, it was Eva, but anyway, I was asked to say the farewell and at that time, I was thinking about it what it really meant to us Hungarians who live in the West. By 1962 there was no hope for us that we will be ever going back to Hungary. And my speech was about that everywhere that we'll go, we are carrying a responsibility with us, because people will not only judge us personally, they will also judge us as Hungarians. So we have to be very conscious of it that it's not only our action but it reflects on our country too. I hope I never embarrass my country. FK: You are a credit.
Finally, let's start something here. Moszkva ter, Szena ter. Got some weapons, light machine guns. In a building that was gas company, metro station. I got a rifle. Russian tanks. No problem, shoot at building, windows. Open fire. Six of them, two of them ran out, entrance of house, start shooting. (Additional monologue ommitted, hard to understand) FK: We should discuss aspects of the revolution after the introductions once we get into the discussion. Mrs. Schattenstein: I already lived in Washington DC in 1956. When I heard about the revolution I cried all the time. Kati Nagy: I was a little girl. I lived in South America, in a small town called Valencia with very few Hungarian families. So I don't know when I first started knowing about 56. I guess I just grew into it. I've just known it all my life but what happened at that time I don't remember. I don't think my family was aware, but I probably should ask my father, he was probably aware of it, but I wasn't.
FK: For a short period, I was at the Library of Congress assigned there, and I saw the dining room, it says Hungarian ...(?), nobody was there, I said, Hungarians are everywhere.
To give a little background on me, both my parents were refugees in the
20s from Transylvania. My father was extensively involved with the "Kisgazda
Part", the Small Holders' Party. My godfather was Tildy Zoltan and,
it's a long story. So I move on. After graduation for the Eotvos Lorant
University of Sciences I was hired into the Ministry for Foreign Affairs.
(Kulugyminiszterium.) In 1954 I got into the Hungarian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, one of the early graduates in there because you have to realize the Hungarian Ministry of Foreign Affairs at that time was really loaded down with a lot of party cadres, not very highly educated people. So I was one of the recent graduates among a dozen of us. I got into the Secretariat of the Minister himself. I was an advisor on press and intelligence affairs. I was received information through the top floor of the Ministry from operators of the radio and telex from 60 Hungarian embassies around the world. Working with 4 secretaries. I dictated a daily briefing to the Minister who was Boldoczky at the time. The secretaries from the stencils pulled copies for all the Desks (Departments) in the Ministry. In the Secretariat there were other specialists, advisors on various topics. My first real impression of the Hungarian government's Foreign Policy and how it worked was a shocker to me. I was in Minister Boldoczky's office in 1954 when the phone rang and the Russian Ambassador was talking to Boldoczky, giving a direct orders of how to go about some action on foreign policy. And after he hang up I asked Boldoczky, who was actually a very kind man, and I asked, excuse me, don't you think that it should be run through the proper protocol of the government, like though the Prime Minister Office, this call is too indirect. He said well, this is how we work nowadays, later on it will change. Soviets didn't call through proper protocol of government, but they called directly from the Embassy to the Minister and I assumed other organs also. Later on I was under Imre Horvath who was the new Minister of Foreign Affairs in 55-56, who was a very rigid, a Stalinist dogmatic communist, no friendly conversation with him. He was a party guy and even his answers were clichés. Let me say that we had another family friend who was involved in the Small Holders' Party whose name was Jeno Szeredas. Jeno when he came out of jail, we met but we had to meet clandestinely because I wasn't sure if the Ministry or the AVH was not watching me. We usually met at a third party, mutual friends, where I was courting a young lady at the time. (Mostly for cover). In the previous years after Stalin's death, with Jeno, too, we frequently discussed these political changes, tried to figure out what reforms are possible. The hope came into our life after the Rakosi terror was weakened, during Rakosi's time I myself spent many weeks in AVH jail too, but I was rehabilitated afterwards, since I was innocent of the charges. I'd like to point out that there you had to prove your innocence (the hard way). I volunteered to work for a while on building the new Metro, in caissons, that is under 2 atmospheric pressures with a sledgehammer, 54 meters underground at the Vorosmarty Square Metro Station. This was part of my rehabilitation. You gathered that I had to be very careful about my career and even with that I was a fairly outspoken person even in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and as always. It was always how you constructed your opinions so it was not negative or offensive, rather constructive opinion. On October 23rd I was at work in the Ministry and I was aware of the demonstration originally organized by the "Petofi Kor" of reform oriented communists or socialists. The back side of the Ministry at that time, it is now the front side, it overlooks Bem Square. As I looked through the second story window and I saw the swelling of 20-30,000 people, that was like a magnet to draw me to the square. I knew that I risk my career but I just walked out of the Ministry and I joined, I couldn't help myself to join and the sweet swell of freedom overtook my fear. I was swept away emotionally hoping for a better tomorrow. From there we marched enthusiastically to the Parliament, it was dark when we all got there. At the big square in the front of the Parliament in darkness, all of us who had matches, lighters lit up newspapers, candles or just any paper we had in our pocket to signal that we are there to stay for answers. Then came Imre Nagy speech which was somewhat disappointing. The rumor was that he had a gun at his back. I noticed that some of the people went to the Stalin statue but I went with the student committee and the majority of the people to the Radio to try to read those 16 points which I felt were more important for the country to know. The feeling that if we go home these points will never get into the radio's program. At the Radio it was fairly late in the evening by then, the crowd was so thick and so large. I've never seen so many enthusiastic people in one place, there were tens of thousands. I was about 25 to 30 yards from the Radio. And hundreds of people ahead of me and thousands beyond me. They would not let us read the 16 points, instead, they broadcast Party Secretary Gero's speech calling us hooligans and other names. There was no fear of the regime any longer - it was replaced in us with rage and fearless patriotic actions. When finally the shooting started you couldn't go back and couldn't go forward. We were shouting and after a while they got some guns from some soldiers and policemen and started to shoot back. Some people were shouting let's go to the Lamp Factory!. Most of us didn't know, why do you want to go to the Lamp Factory? Well, that was the cover name for the weapons factory what the communists used for to confuse people, which was located on the Soroksari Road towards Csepel. It was almost dawn by the time they got enough weapons. By that time there were scores of people dead and cars burning... And the AVH was shooting out of the doors, naturally the Radio was saying that we were shooting in, and we didn't even have enough guns to do so. Part of the crowd and me started toward the Parliament again to see if we can get some political statements from someone again explaining the madness we witnessed. There was none. Anyhow I don't want to go too deeply into it. On the 25th I with several friends went to the Parliament to join that day the march to the Parlament. As we were standing in the ground in the front of the building we noticed that people were getting on the roof of the parament. We watched with interest. But suddenly machine gun firing started from the roof of the Parlament and behind us Russian tanks shooting into the crowd. Instinctively we took off running ziz-zaging to get away from the cross fire, toward the bank of the Danube and bridge away from the building. Later in the afternoon, I went back to the Ministry very angry. In the auditorium there was a large meeting in mid afternoon after Minister Imre Horvath announced that he is leaving the post and the country. He left with a Russian armored vehicle which took him to the airport. As the crowd, the staff were together and I jumped on a chair and I shouted still angry, that everywhere they are organizing revolutionary committees and I talked to mostly the younger ones. Mind you, there were only 35 of us who were not members of the party among 800 people in the Ministry. And all of us were members of the DISZ (demokrata ifjusagi szovetseg). And this young group supported me! The people held an election, we called it an election, and I was elected to be the Secretary of the Revolutionary Committee for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.. Some of the older people, the head of the civilian personnel nominated Mod Peter to the Chairman of the Revolutionary Committee. He was 45 or 46 and the other nominee was Szarka Karoly who was again in his late forties.Their argument was that they were more experienced than I at 25! So the three of us made the Hungarian Revolutionary Committee for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Later that afternoon, by that time we changed from "elvtars" to "bajtars", and they said, Toth Bajtars, there are a couple of soldiers looking for you in the lobby. So I went down and I found my brother, Frank there and a bunch of soldiers and three truck loads of various weapons, Kalisnikovs, machine guns and live ammunition. He left Kecskemet with an order to deliver this to Budapest to some base but on their way they heard enough news about fighting so they decided to switch to the revolution's side. Frank, my brother said to them, I know my brother is in the Ministry, let's go there. Just around the corner there was the Bem Military house there, so I kept some weapons for the Ministry, I took a Kalisnikov plus a 9 mm on my side. Later on I kept it in my office and Frank with his soldiers delivered the rest to the Bem Military Laktanya. Later on Szeredas Jeno and the Szena Square gang used those weapons and got those weapons in their hands. There is a long story what we did in the Ministry I don't want to go into it. The political situation changed hourly. There were a lot of frustration in trying to carry out orders toward embassies. Ordering Kos Peter back from the UN as Hungary representative. The intrigue in the Ministry was tiring. From that day on I stayed day and night at the Ministry, leaving for meetings only. FC: Actually, I would like to talk about your experiences when you got into the revolutionary government, not necessary about the fighting. Imre L. Toth: When the Imre Nagy government moved out of the Party HQ House and moved into the Parliament, that's when new government additions were selected, that's where Tildy Zoltan was there too. Tildy Zoltan, Kovacs Bela and Erdei were appointed into the government. Shortly afterward we had some short discussion with Zoltan bacsi. There were three non-communists, Tildy, Kovacs and Erdei from the Farmers Party (Paraszt Part). The directive was that confusion was in the West because about 30 Hungarian Ambassadors were talking about counter-revolution in Budapest confusing the West, Asia to America, not even mentioning the United Nations. Various statements, they didn't know what to say so they asked the Soviet counterparts and they said, counter-revolution in Hungary. One of the first things what we did, the three of us all signed the order, sharing responsibility, we ordered 30 different ambassadors to stand down and wait for future directives, or call back for consultation but not to make any more statements to the press. Most of those orders did not reach their destinations, we did not know why, so we were following up on the telephone. Let me say that the top floor, the third floor in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the Bem Rakpart side was a communication center where we had a big radio, an antenna out in the outskirts of Budapest toward Monor where we communicated with all these embassies through cryptic radio messages. And we had teletypes what was open communication centers again, we sent orders, documents up there to the top floor. That was closed to even the staff, "to make sure they don't do any damage to the equipment". One needed special clearance to enter there. These orders never went out and I found out through another party who was in communications and this was on the 28th, he said, Imre, you know that all the outside lines that goes out of the ministry to foreign countries is listened to by AVH personnel?. There are 3 to 4 AVH up there, controlling all of the international communications! I certainly did not know, but Mod Peter was delivering documents up there since he had the clearance. By that time we figured this out, Dudas actually heavily criticized the Ministry that nothing is happening or too slow in the international arena. There was confusion out in the West! We found out that most of those orders didn't go out, they were held back or altered/destroyed.. And that's when I called Szena Ter and I asked them to sent out some soldiers, I said there are some AVH personnel in the Ministry for Foreign Affairs. Anyhow, to cut the long story short, the AVH, the four of them came down
from the communication center and my office was right at top of the stairs,
they already knew who I was! But from whom? One, really nasty guy among
them put his gun under my chin threatening to kill me and calling me various
names.. My weapons were under my desk and the sidearm in the desk drawer.
There were really scary minutes! Then some more fighters arrived from Szena Ter. The soldiers from inside
were shooting at them. The outsiders were shooting at the soldiers inside
at windows. Dangerous confusion, people inside were frightened and taking
cover. The AVH guys already left. I had to stay about a block away, since it was fierce firing like the WW II broke out. It was a very dangerous situation. Afterwards, Kiraly Bela settled it down and sorted out the situation. I owe gratitude to all of them specially General Kiraly to save my life. (Kiraly Bela was 45 at the time, right now he's 95 and injured, he broke
his collar bone, in Hungary. Anybody who wants to send him a get well
card I can give you his address. There are a lot more episodes and double
crossing by Mod and Szarka to contain the radical revolutionary, me....
but that's another story!
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Do you need a Website to help you get the word out on your 1956 plans? www.hungary1956.com The American Hungarian Federation is sponsoring the Hungary 1956 Portal as part of its goals to coordinate and assist member organizations across the country as it continues plans for kicking off a year of events leading up to October 2006. The 1956 Portal will serve as a central information resource on 1956 as our community prepares for this important milestone. Includes many photos as well as Audio and Video files! Featured Video Note: You will need the free RealAudio Player to see these videos. Click [here] to download.
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